E100: Resiliently You Part 5 – Featuring Tricia Broderick

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Dr. Dave Cornelius:

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Dr. Dave:

So I'm just dying of laughter. So welcome to the KnolShare with Dr. Dave podcast. I am Dr. Dave Cornelius, your host. We're continuing the series, Resilient You, to discover what makes people resilient, to build resilient organization. My guest today is Tricia Broderick, co-author of Lead Without Blame: Building Resilient Learning Teams. Tricia is also an agile trainer coach and advocate for diversity and inclusion. So welcome Tricia. I'm so glad to be able to talk to you.

Tricia:

I'm so glad I finally found time and we could sync our schedules to make this happen. I'm so excited to be here.

Dr. Dave:

Likewise. So I would love to get an elevator pitch so that people could understand who you are and the superpower that you bring to this space.

Tricia:

Oh, elevator pitch. Well, I'm going to change it up and say something slightly different than the standard, "Oh, I was a computer science major", who cares about any of that? I guess my elevator pitch of who I am is the person who is continuing to learn how to lead, but isn't afraid to share the challenges along the ways to say the things that might be hard to say, to make sure that we're constantly growing and learning to be the best in the space where we can help others thrive.

And so, my superpower is to really be as authentic as I can. My colleague often jokes that you get the same Tricia no matter who's in the room, and that probably is true, but I think the other superpower is just being able to acknowledge that I don't always get it right and that I'm learning still and I'm growing still, and the only way you mess up truly as a leader is you stop trying, and so I think that's my elevator pitch is, I want to see leaders create environments that lift people up, and I realize it's hard work.

Dr. Dave:

Sure is. So, in your journey, as you encounter people and coaching and training, how do you define resilient people?

Tricia:

So I mean, you've got your standard resilient definition, ability to respond. If you're doing a whole podcast, you've probably gone through this in a lot of ways. For me, it's not about just being courageous or brave, it's not just being driven or focused and dedicated. For me it's being able to also be adaptive, to be reflective, to be in a space where you can process and think again and realize that part of resiliency is not being perfect, but growing, and evolving and inspecting as things are needed.

And so for me, resiliency and people isn't perfection, it's being able to respond to the chaos, because if nothing else we should all acknowledge at this point is chaos is the norm, not complexity even, and so how do people respond in that chaos? Are they taking time for self care? Are they taking time to challenge themselves? Are they supporting others? And that's, for me, what makes resiliency? Is it perfection or pure grit? A lot of people say just grit of sticking something, it's like, no, sometimes asking for help and not sticking for a minute is resilience in terms of just moving forward and reacting to that, especially the chaos.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah, definitely. Especially in this time, it's even more chaotic than we have seen it for some time. So as you're in this chaos, what makes you resilient so that you could navigate what's really going on?

Tricia:

So things that I've done to try and help maintain my resiliency is, one, I do reach out and I have a great support network. I think there are times when it just can feel exhausting, and this is with any work you're doing, whether it's DEI work, whether it's agility work, all of it, it's exhausting, and so there are times when you're like, "Am I crazy? Am I the one that's nuts?" And having people to be able to bounce things off of, collaborate with, be inspired by, motivated by, supported by, is really important for me, it's one of the reasons that I co-wrote the book is because just having that collaboration is a huge part of me, not just wanting to not let myself down or other people down, but also not wanting to let this collaborator down and contributing in that and seeing the bigger picture of what we're trying to do.

I think that's the other part is, beyond your support network is always looking at the bigger goal. These are steps, no one step is going to make or break everything and no one step is going to destroy everything, and so, always keeping that picture on that bigger lens so that when at times you feel like, "am I doing anything? Am I dying on this battlefield? Am I able to keep going?" It is to be able to really look and say, "Oh wait, this is how far we have come, this is how far I've come, this is how far I've seen people come", and then keep looking at what that bigger picture is that inspires me to keep going further and not giving up, not quitting, not willing to settle, because that's really part of the resiliency is just not being willing to settle.

Dr. Dave:

That's right. Never give up, never settle. So those are great words of wisdom that you're provided there. So in your new book, Lead Without Blame that you co-authored with Diana Larsen. What was the intent of the book?

Tricia:

So I think I'm still waiting for the words, "you co-authored with Diana Larsen", to register as like, "Oh my gosh", and not have a, "I did that?", reaction, but here's really what we were finding. I mean honestly it was just perfect timing in many ways, we had both been being approach to write something and we're like, "Well, what do we want to write? We want it to be passionate, we really want to be engaged", and when Covid hit and just a number of the social world aspects were happening, there were so many people that were like, "this is a taboo topic in the workplace", and yet some of those taboo topics were the very thing we needed for resiliency and to be able to learn and grow from, and so we started going, "why are there so many people that would've said they were in successful thriving teams suddenly just completely fall apart the minute Covid hit and the minute difficult conversations came up that people didn't want to have, and why did everybody just suddenly go into a shell and pretend like it wasn't happening and go off by themselves?"

And so the motivation behind the book in a lot of ways was we saw a lot of really good intent, really good goals from leaders, and yet the behaviors that were happening, because they were status quo in organizations, because we were taught to do that as leaders, we just not accomplishing the goal that we want, and then when you add in chaos, it was just blowing it up even further and it was suddenly where you couldn't pretend anymore that things were okay, the pretend, let's get the pretense off the table, let's forget about it, and so the book started becoming this, look, we believe a lot more leaders have really good intentions, have really good goals, but have just never been taught, challenged to consider approaching leadership in a different way.

Because I don't think many leaders were walking around going, "I'm going to blame someone today", they were walking around going, "Who can I hold accountable? We want to make sure we don't do this again", and those are good in essence, except the problem is there's an assumption you could have avoided it, and in chaos that's not always true, and so we wanted to give people not a space where they're going to shame themselves, but a space where they can start to learn some new techniques and topics that we say are no longer off the table, these need to be brought into the workplace and really actively addressed to create the workplaces where people can just be their best.

Dr. Dave:

That is so powerful, because what just showed up for me in what you were saying is a cliche topic that we always come up with, learn fast. So that's what just popped into my head, learn fast. As part of the book, you have this wonderful section called Resilience Factors, and I was thinking about it, resilience factors, I'm like, okay, let me just ask her what is meant by resilience factors?

Tricia:

So one of the biggest fears, this book's so emerged, I mean truly we wrote the book as we live the book in some ways, but one of the things that a lot of leaders struggle with is like, "okay, we get the team performing, we do this, then what's my role? What do I contribute, if I'm not doing and I'm not the hub anymore and I'm not this and that, what am I really doing?" And there's this underlining assumption that when a team becomes self-organizing then all magic problems go away, and it's like, "oh how adorably cute." No.

And so there were definitely, I mean there's lots of topics, but for us there were four factors in particular that if you really wanted to create an environment where people could be resilient, these four topics needed to be addressed. One is conflict, how do we get a healthier relationship with conflict in a way that doesn't escalate it to drama? This whole, people are like, "it's business, it's not personal", you're quoting a fictional movie about the mob as your business best practice. No, like

Tricia:

It is. We are going to have conflict. That's going to happen. How do we deal with it in healthier ways? Because the scariest to me is a team that says, "We don't have conflict," because it usually means they're not talking or they're not really showing up. They're not really giving their input. So conflict was one of them.

Another one was just creating connections. Again, that personal versus thing, and so much, when we went to remote, it's like, "Business only. Just get on the call, answer your questions, and get off." And then suddenly, when someone sent a message to ask me to do something, I'm like, "They're evil. They're mean," because I no longer saw you as a person. I no longer saw you as a connection to me. You were just somebody asking me to do something and putting me out of my way. And I'm not saying you have to be best friends with everybody, but are we tuning those connections and those relationships, so that when we go to collaborate together, when we go to engage together, I actually am invested in this engagement? I want you to succeed as much as me, and I think we're not paying enough attention to that. We're so individualized in our performance reviews and things like that. So connection was another one.

A third one was power dynamics. Most people think of the formal power, who reports to who, but there's also influential power. There's hidden power or unidentified power. There's dominant power. There's all these power influences that can have positive or negative impacts into your team. And if you're pretending that they don't exist, we're going to be in trouble.

And then the fourth one was really creating inclusive collaborations, and Diane and I, we actually brought in a DI expert, Jamar Nova Mitchell, to aid us in this section, but also in the book as a whole, of what does it really mean to create inclusive engagements? Not just, "We're all going to collaborate and then hope that it happens," but to truly create an environment where people feel seen and heard and included, so that we can get the best wisdom of the crowd, that we can get the best creative ideas and what that means.

And for a lot of people, these are topics, like conflict and power and diverse, and inclusion, and even relationships and connections, that people avoid. They actively avoid these, because they're messy or they're hard or they're scary. And for us, these were four of the things that when you talk about being able to be in an uncomfortable, chaotic environment, if I can have a conversation about these things, I can be in uncomfortable, chaotic environments with these people.

And so for us, this is what we were focused on, these resilience factors. Focused on creating team environments where they're dealing with these topics, where they're proactively engaging in these topics and not avoiding them.

Dr. Dave:

That is so excellent, but I'm going to even do one more. I'm going to go a little deeper into each one of them and see how they connect back to teams, how they connect back to individuals, how they connect back to value, connect back to healthy spaces for us to thrive in.

So when we talk about the collaborative connection, how does that help to create resilient teams?

Tricia:

So the connection, in itself, a lot of people confuse cooperation with collaboration. They are two different things. Cooperation sounds like, "Hey, Dave, I want to help you, as long as my part gets done." That's cooperation. I'm helpful. We might even work together a little bit, but at the end of the day, it's your part; it's my part. Collaboration is where we're working together, where we're building together. In order to do that building together, there's got to be some trust building up. I've got to be able to not worry that my accidental interrupter, because when I think he already immediately flies out of here, isn't insulting you. That you understand that that's part of my thought process of working and how I work. And I've got to understand some of how you work best, and are we giving each other allowances for that? Are we engaging with each other in ways that's respectful to how we could work best together?

It's not enough to just sit two people in the room and go, "Collaborate." We've got to build trust. We've got to build connection. And by doing that, I ended up learning a lot about myself. I'm an accidental interrupter. I'm not doing it to be rude. I do it because I get so excited about what you say that it flies out of my mouth. But it's something that helps me to learn more about myself, which helps me be stronger in how to interact and engage with other people.

In addition, once I start learning and I make that connection with you, I become an advocate for you. I become an advocate for, "Oh, Dr. Dave does this, and you got to come with this." And those connections then build other connections and expand our network, which helps us to be stronger. We are stronger in a crowd. We are stronger with that wisdom and that collaboration.

So for me, it's about building something with a solid base to work from, versus just throwing people in a room and going, "Make magic." That's hard.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah, I know. Yeah, it's really difficult, but I just want to acknowledge the fact that when you were on the board at Agile Alliance and we were trying to figure stuff out with that Five Saturdays Program, that you stepped in and collaborated and connected to enable the program to move forward for many years, by asking the right questions and genuine questions. So thank you for that.

Tricia:

Yeah, because it's not about just a checklist that you're trying to accomplish. I need to understand why this is passionate for you, because you were going to come at Five Saturdays different than somebody else, because there was a different passion and a motivation there. And if we're not taking the time to learn those things, then we're not understanding what might be really behind being driven. We're also not then being able to align with that passion, because it's the passion that really makes us resilient and going. That's the goal. It's not a checklist of things to just work through really quickly.

Dr. Dave:

So true, and when I looked at the word power dynamics, we learned about that back in the day. And it was so great of you guys to bring that back as a topic, because as we're playing around an agile space, trying to eliminate or minimize. I won't say eliminate, but minimize the effect of the power dynamics, but you brought this up as a very important aspect of building high-resilience team.

So talk to me about power dynamics and the effect on an individual's sense of belonging, because that is such a huge thing, to find our space of belonging today. How does the power dynamics affect that?

Tricia:

So I'm going to answer part of it first, and then I'll come back to how does it affect the individual? This is an area that, like I said, when we opened, well, I got hit hard with all of these four. But this one was the one that I kept going, "No, I'm just one of the team. I'm going to minimize or eliminate power. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Who cares?" And I did not understand how many people assumed I had way more power than I did, whether it was because I was on the board or the conference chair. How many people were reaching out to me to basically forge something and not really just to collaborate, because they assumed I had power that I didn't or did have? And it made my trust issues with people, when I realized, "Oh, you just think I can get you X. Is that the only reason you're talking to me?" I'm like, "I just want to be one of the team. Who cares?"

And I remember saying to somebody. I was like, "Who cares about titles?" And somebody looked at me, and they did this with the utmost respect. They said, "Must be nice to say, with the title of executive." And I was like, Oh, okay." So I started actually thinking about this differently. If I can't minimize the power dynamics, they're always present. I can't minimize them. How do I turn them into something that's more positive and use my power for good? Whether it's perceived power or real power, how do I start making it so that it's more power with, instead of power over?

And so we really dove into this topic, not just from a formal hierarchy. A boss can make you do something, but what are little things that bosses sometimes do that emphasize power over, versus power with? So I would invite myself to a meeting. Well, by inviting myself to a meeting, I'm basically communicating, "I can go wherever I want, whenever I want, whatever I want. And oh, but don't be afraid of me." These were mixed messages that were playing out. And so instead, I was like, "Okay, I could walk in the room and wish that everybody didn't just turn to me for an answer, or I could walk in the room and facilitate a way for everybody's voices to be heard and demonstrate that I want that engagement."

And so I think some of it isn't about any more eliminating or minimizing power. It's making sure that power is having a positive impact and not a negative impact, and that can be in lots of different ways. Even Diana, writing this book with me. Clearly, she is somebody that I respect and have learned from in many ways over time. And it could have been really easy for her to be the lead writer, and I just added a few things here or there. Her influential power over me is great. She doesn't want it, but it's there. I look at her, and she could say, "The sky is purple," and I'd be like, "It must be." I would totally go with it.

So she had to actively make an effort to make sure that my voice was being heard, that I was challenging things, that she was putting me as her peer in writing this book and what I was bringing to the table, what she was bringing to the table. And as a result, we truly co-wrote this book. There is no chapter that was Diana. We literally co-wrote sentences together, as we were going forward.

And so power dynamics, getting to the individual part, is going, "How do I create a space where individuals can still recognize, acknowledge the power dynamic?" I can recognize and acknowledge that I still greatly aspire and respect Diana, and yet I'm also her peer, and that is a powerful

Tricia:

... Thing from a resiliency standpoint, in terms of us being able to see our own worth, and us being able to feel confidence in moving forward, and us still being able to recognize the people in good or bad way, but not letting power pull our value down.

Dr. Dave:

No. That's so rich, in terms of the dynamics and the relationship that came out of this, right? In terms of you having that sense of belonging, of being a co-author, right? And not someone writing a book with Diana Larson. It's just really important, right?

Tricia:

Yeah.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. I think so. So when we think about conflict, we're going to talk about conflict and how that helps to build resilient and high performing teams so that they fuel innovation. So I want to say, what strength does the conflict resilience factor provide to enable teams to deliver value?

Tricia:

Yeah. So it's not a secret to anybody who's ever met me, I like conflict. I'm okay with conflict. Conflict doesn't scare me. Drama, that's a whole nother story. Drama is a different ballgame, right? But conflict, for me, is just something's trying to happen. Conflict is just a problem solved. My late mentor, David Hussman, you say, "Every problem is just an opportunity." Every conflict is just an opportunity, but there's so many people afraid of that, that we silence ourselves, we avoid it, we disengage, we compromise, or we just defer to people. And in the end, you are individually not winning. The other person's not winning. And whatever outcome we're trying to target is definitely not winning.

And so, I'm on this mission in a lot of ways, to try and get the definition of conflict changed. It's just a problem to solve, it's just an opportunity. Drama, that's a whole nother story, right? But if you avoid conflict, if you don't allow conflict to happen, not only are you not going to get the outcomes, this is when it does build to drama. This is when it does have the problems.

And so, how do we get better at really de-escalating and keeping conflict in a healthy state? How do we get better at creating an environment where we applaud conflict, like, "Yes. That means we've got to figure something out. This means that people are being engaged and we've got" versus going, "Oh, no. Somebody said something. Oh, no. What's going to happen?" And people are gearing up their television as it's Real Life Housewives or something. No. And it drives me bonkers. And it can be really trivial. It can be something that's just...

I had a colleague once take a photo, and he took a photo of three of my colleagues. It was for my session, but he was prompting my session, but I wasn't in the photo because I was up in the front trying to get my computer set up, right? But he tweets this photo out and tags me, so everybody keeps retweeting, "Oh, look at them." But I'm not in the photo. So it felt off to me, right? So if I was going to avoid conflict and this problem, I'd just ignore it. But the problem is, is when you ignore it, now do I really want to collaborate with this person? Right? Do I really want to engage? Even if I believe they didn't do it maliciously, I hate the phrase "assume good intent," because yes, I want to assume good intent, but the impact matters, and the impact matters more.

And so, for me, I just was like, "Hey. You did include me in the photo. Re-take the photo. Re-take the photo." And totally was like, "Oh, he just didn't think about it." And we took the photo again and we tweeted that one out, and it was all good and it was fine.

But how many times when something like that is little, and then there's another little thing, and then another little thing, and then suddenly, you've got drama in the team, but nobody really knows what it's from. It's escalated to this point, and it's just not necessary because we have this definition that conflict is bad. No. The whole point of wisdom of the crowd is diverse thoughts, experiences, and input. Well, that means conflict. But can we make that conflict just a problem to solve? Or are we going to turn it into a winners versus losers battle? And the minute we do that, now we're going to be in that drama category.

And I could soapbox on this for a while because I feel like this is just a topic for the world. Can we stop with the us versus them, winners and losers, or the worst, the crusades, right? "I'm now arguing on this for this noble cause. So now, if you don't agree with me, you're not just losing, you're going to be losing on behalf of all these people." And it doesn't serve.... We're not making any progress once we're there. So keep it to this problem to solve, and take little steps. We're going to make way more progress with that.

Dr. Dave:

There's so many thoughts that went through my mind as you were sharing. And the one thing that just jumps out is rock, paper, scissors, or roshambo, that game that we use as a way to encourage collaboration, encourage support for each other, and that the loser goes on and cheered the name of the winner.

Tricia:

Yes.

Dr. Dave:

So that came to mind. I'm like, "Oh, yeah. Yeah. The person who actually made this really famous was someone trying to deal with two different gangs who were always in conflict. And she used a simple metaphor like rock, paper, scissors, or roshambo, as a way to reduce conflict and said, 'Hey, we could always get beyond this." Yeah.

Tricia:

Because the reality is, is once you are supporting, you are a part of it. It doesn't feel like you lost, right? If you focus on it as a problem to solve, it's not about winners or losers. Now you're collaborating, and you get to own the new result. And that is always so much better than what any one of us brought to the table anyways individually.

Dr. Dave:

So true. So true, as you speak of the wisdom of the crowds. So a big word that we always talk about, a big phrase I would say, is psychological safety, which is a welcome behavior that we want for our team members, right? And so, if you could describe how the inclusive collaboration factor creates space for people to thrive, we'll keep it in mind that we're talking about psychological safety as a theme that's moving us through.

Tricia:

Yeah. So I always love it. A lot of people were like, "Oh, what's this fluffy stuff? Trust and psychological safety." Right? And it's always like, "Ooh, can't we just do work?" Right? Well, the problem is, is you can't do the work without the safety and the trust. That's the dynamic.

This is one of those topics, just power dynamics for me, that I will own that here I thought I was doing a great job, right? I was not fully patting myself on the back, but I have, as people would say, the receipts, that I've tried to open doors for a very, very long time. This is not something new that just started in 2020. This is something I've been doing for a long time and it was always very important to me.

But what I failed at was, one, I didn't communicate why I was opening doors to anybody. And to me, that was just being humble or, "It's not about me." Right? Where I didn't realize, "No, that education needed to be happening." Right? There was a reason Denise Jacobs was the keynote in 2017 as the first black keynote on that stage. Right? But I didn't talk to people about it. I didn't explain why I was doing that or why that was important or things like that, I just did it, right?

And so, in a lot of ways, it wasn't until a moment that I experienced something where I was in a conference. Somebody had gone up to one of my colleagues and asked if I was the token female on the team. And I went, and I overheard this. I wasn't present in the conversation, but I overheard it and I found myself being mad at the colleague, not the person who said it. The colleague was saying all these amazing, wonderful, "No, she's the best leader. She will outspeak anybody in a room." Right? He was saying all these amazingly wonderful, some of the things I wouldn't even agree with, things, right?

But I was still mad at him. And I was mad because what he didn't say was, "That's a crappy question." And that's when I started realizing that the lack of my education about what I was doing and why I was doing it, but also once I opened the door, doesn't mean you had a seat at the table, no matter what intersectionality dynamic it was that was underrepresented. Opening the door did not mean seat at the table of truly inclusivity. And this is where I was like, "Duh. I've been leaving people hanging. I need to do more, and what that next level was."

And so, part of that comes in, as "Am I creating psychological safety where when we say we want diversity, are we creating a space where people can be them? Where they can be seen for their differences and their experiences that they're bringing to the table? Because if we can't, then there was no point of diversity if there's no inclusion. And what is my role in that, in terms of not just opening doors and trying to help pay that forward as others did for me, but to create the education around why it needs to be safe once we open those doors. Why it can't be just, 'Buck up. What's your problem? You're there.'" Right?

And I'll even highlight this, Dr. Dave, I remember sitting, God, this would have been, I don't know, 2015, '14. This was a long time ago, where you and I were sitting along with a few, Ellen Grove, maybe some other people. We were sitting at a table at the Members Meeting at the conference.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tricia:

And it have been one of the first times Five Saturdays was being brought up or whatever. And I remember actually sitting there thinking how awesome it was for you to be up there to be able to highlight that, for our community to see that. But if you worked around the room, there wasn't many other black people in that room at that time in those areas. Obviously, I'm not telling you something you don't know. But I'm explaining that across the board, right? In a lot of

Tricia:

Ways. I remember a friend of mine of all often says, "I knew every other black person that was at that conference in that it's space". And then I remember going this year and I went this year and it was amazing feeling at Agile 2022. Just the diversity, not just black, but it's across the board of just diversity and inclusion that was happening. And it just made my heart sing.

And so for me, part of that is creating the safety of the environment. That when we do open the doors, when we do create the space that people can shine for who they are and what they're bringing to the table. And that is something I just want to see more and more happen. But the only way it happens is if it's safe and it's psychologically safe to happen and people discount it as like, "Oh, who cares? Sticks and stones will break your bones, but words will never hurt me". Well actually the brain science says you react to words as psychological threats, the same as physical threats. So when that person said the crappy, are you the token female? It was as if they punched me in the gut. My body reacted in the same way.

And so you can say it all day long, what's the big deal? Or we can start creating a space where people can express those impacts, where people can start to not have those impacts all together and really be able to engage and be resilient in that. We can't put the resiliency for inclusion on the underrepresented. This is everybody to create that psychological safe environment.

Dr. Dave:

And as I say, belonging belongs to everyone.

Tricia:

Yes. Oh I love that.

Dr. Dave:

But the new director, I think her name is Theresa Foster.

Tricia:

Yes.

Dr. Dave:

For Agile Alliance. So just giving her acknowledgement, because I was trying to figure out how can I contribute to the conference this year because I wasn't planning and going. And so I'm like, well if I'm not spending that money to attend and she created a pathway for Agile In Color and I could be a sponsor for that because that is part of the safety, the inclusion of really bringing whatever resources, and really putting you money where your mouth is in terms of really being serious about this stuff. So I mean I'm really just grateful for the opportunity.

Tricia:

Thank you for that. It was awesome to see. And CP, one of the founders of the Agile In Color was just, I mean he was in heyday. It was awesome to see him in the cross. It was wonderful.

Dr. Dave:

Yep. I mean that's so good that it was born out of those conversation that we had in 2020 to see that's came up.

Tricia:

Long overdue conversations. Long overdue.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. So let's talk about, I want you to leave our guest with a few words of encouragement that think of it as this is today's gift when they listen to these words of encouragement coming from you. And so there you are.

Tricia:

Oh this feels way more pressure than all the rest of it I can answer. Be smart, be motivational. The minute you say that, I'm like, I got nothing. What would I say? I guess I'll answer this question as what would I have said to myself and as I was kind of embarking on this is it is scary. These topics are scary. I step in it all the time. I'll say something wrong. Resiliency is, again, not about perfection, it's about learning. It's about that willingness to learn. So honestly, I'm sorry. And then listen to what you didn't understand, what bias you brought to the table, what assumption, what training that was wrong that you got, that you were just doing what you thought was the right thing to do. And the more that you, if I can do it, anybody can. And so there's this dynamic of the only way you fail at resiliency is you stop learning, be willing to learn. Surround yourself by super courageous, willing people that are going to have tough conversations and it will be amazing what you can pull out of them.

Dr. Dave:

Thank you so much for sharing today and for allowing us to just dig into your book, the book that you did with Diana Larson, you co-authored. I'm really excited that we had a chance to talk about some of those topics because it's something that it's top of mind for me right now and it's something that I'm really focused on. So thank you so much for showing up and being willing to come on our podcast.

Tricia:

You're welcome. And thank you for what you do and you bring to the community and what that means for people and creating the spaces that you have, not just now, but for a very long time. And you are somebody that I've admired, respected, and been grateful for our interactions all these years too. So thank you for having me on. Thank you for your support and things. But thank you for making a difference because that's what you do.

Dr. Dave:

Thank you, that almost want to bring tears to my eyes coming from someone who has been doing amazing work for a long time as well. So we're equal admirers of each other's work. Thank you so much for doing that.

So let me close. And I would like to say thank you for listening to the KnolShare with Dr. Dave podcast. I invite you to come back for more insights and perspective. Let me help you with discovering Resiliently You.

KnolShare with Dr. Dave Podcast is streamed on Spotify, Apple, Audible, and Google and many other platforms. I think there's about 30 of them or more.

I would like to say thank you to my niece, Kianna Brow Henderson collaborated with Drop in Music for this podcast with her, that was so fun to make it a family thing.

 

This podcast is copy written 2022 by Dr. Dave Cornelius and knolshare.org.

 

Again, thank you for listening and stay tuned for the next episode, Resiliently You as we continue to share our stories and experiences. So thank you Tricia, you are amazing.

Tricia:

Thank you

Dr. Dave:

A game changing framework for evaluating what it means to create value. Deliver value, happy, contributing people, satisfied customers, thriving business. Value is one of those concepts everyone thinks they understand until the moment they must describe it to someone else. Deliver value is essential reading for every business owner, executive, manager, entrepreneur, and anyone who cares about the future of work. What are you waiting for? Get your copy of Deliver Value book right now on amazon.com. Get your free chapters of Deliver Value book right now on delivervaluebook.com. That's delivervaluebook.com.

Kayanna:

Let's talk about it. Talk, talk, talk. Let's go deep. We all have something to share. KnolShare with Dr. Dave.