E93: Belonging and Healing [Part 4]: The Root Before the Fruit

Kayanna: (singing).

Dr. Dave:

So hello and welcome to the KnolShare with Dr. Dave Podcast. This is Dr. Dave Cornelius, your host. We're continuing the conversation of belonging and healing, with my guest, Tracy Treacy from D & S Healing Center. Hey Tracy Treacy, how have you been?

Tracy:

Woo-hoo. Awesome. I've been doing well. How about you, sir?

Dr. Dave:

You know, same here, same here. Just one day at a time. We use the metaphor, an island of one, one, one, one. It's like walking, so one, one.

Tracy:

Okay.

Dr. Dave:

Okay. Yeah. Hey, we're getting into the conversation around healing. So one, one. One foot in front of the other, because sometimes that's what it takes, right?

Tracy:

Yeah. I mean you don't want to go backwards, though sometimes you do, but the idea is to... one foot in front of the other to keep it moving. Yeah.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. You got to keep it moving.

Tracy:

I guess I didn't get the island reference with that and-

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

... but you islanders got your way of doing things.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. Well, that's what I learned. It's a thing.

Tracy:

It's a thing. One, one, here we go.

Dr. Dave:

One one. So here's a quote, a couple quotes that I grabbed from Vienna Pharaon. "Healing happens when you move through the pains, the patterns, and stories, and walk your way into a healthy ending." And that's one quote, and then, Maya Angelou of course, she says, "Forgive yourself for not knowing what you didn't know before you learned it." So our conversation today is, the root before the fruit. So the root before the fruit concept describes the need for solid root to support a sustainable opportunity to bare fruit in our healing space. Right? And so we're going to... I'm using I, I'm using the metaphor of sower, who own good soil to plant seeds. And good soil is rich with nutrients, which created space for plants and to have an abundant food supply to support healthy development. And I'm just using us, our bodies, our minds, our spirit, as that soil. And the work that we go through... the healing aspect is the seed. So good seeds are also essential for the process of growing healthy fruits. So you are a sower aren't you?

Tracy:

I would say yes. I have not heard that term, but I'm going to say yes.

Dr. Dave:

So tell me, let's talk about you as a sower.

Tracy:

You know-

Dr. Dave:

I know you're doing some good stuff.

Tracy:

Well, I mean, I do call myself a healer. Right?

Dr. Dave:

Okay. There you go.

Tracy:

And my healing can only happen when I'm, co-creating that space for a person... I'm creating a space for a person to help them heal, which is the co-creation. Right? That's with us working together and me supporting that work. And there are many different ways to do the work. I find the richest way to do the work is through the body. Right? And then that combines... the body, I don't think of separate as the mind. I think of that altogether. There's this one theory... oh my gosh, Dave, I can't remember who said it. I want to say it goes back to Freud, of how the neck is the separator. No, it goes back to Jung, not Freud. How the neck is a separator from the mind and the body. And that what we do is we cut off. We, we become very heady.

We become a world, a society, a community that really values the intellect. And then what the body holds, is the feelings. And it holds the experiences. And we don't want that to interfere with how things are processed up here, but there's no way we can't have that thing work. And I think the neck is the thing that connects the mind and body. You know, con-neck? I call it a con-neck.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

Right?

Dr. Dave:

Yeah, yeah.

Tracy:

I spell it C and then E-C-K. The c-eck-ter. Right? The mind and the body. Because it does connect the two. So, I mean, when I say the body, I say mind and body, and I think we're all spirit, we come from spirit. So to me, that's all combined. The mind, body, and the spirit. They're not separate. And for us to approach healing, as in separating those spaces, it makes it more difficult to forgive. It makes it more difficult to... as the first quote, healing happens when you move through the pain, the patterns and the stories. I know when person has worked through their stuff, is when their bodies no longer have a response to that thing. Because now the body is healed.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. Well, you can see it in their faces, on the body languages, right? Or even just the thought of an individual or a certain situation. You see you shift-

Tracy:

Yeah.

Dr. Dave:

... in that human being, right? That person kind of like, "Whoa." "Hey, come on now." So...

Tracy:

Well, I mean, I believe there's this thing called the pain body. So what we can see is how a person carries their trauma. And I've gotten really good at people, just looking at people. Not necessarily knowing what their trauma is, but knowing that there has been trauma. By the way they walk and present and move. And the body tells... we'll talk about some things later, but there's this book called The Body Keeps the Score. So the body keeps all of the memories. Right? That it should have stored on a cellular level. So we've got to release it cellularly.

Dr. Dave:

Certainly, certainly. So, when I think of healing, I think there's three different aspects, even though it's one. There's one person, right? I think that there's a psychological aspect of healing. Right? There's a physical which somatic. Right? But also there's a spiritual aspect of it. So I think all three are needed for us to really come full circle, with dealing with whatever trauma or pain that's been introduced into our lives either by ourselves or by someone else.

Tracy:

Right.

Dr. Dave:

Right?

Tracy:

Right.

Dr. Dave:

So if we had to start with the psychological aspect of it, what are your thoughts of how that works? And how that has been working in terms of a healing tool? As a seed for healing?

Tracy:

Yeah. So what psychology has done with healing and pain is we've made it clinical.

Dr. Dave:

Right.

Tracy:

And so we have a diagnosis for things. And-

Dr. Dave:

"You're crazy."

Tracy:

Well, that is not a clinical diagnosis. However, that's what people call folks who have a clinical diagnosis. Right? So say you have a clinical diagnosis of... I'm going to say bipolar disorder. And this is a very con... I'm saying something very controversial, but I'm just going to do it. Okay?

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

Bipolar disorder can be a chemical imbalance, right? And that's how it's diagnosed. So you get drugs, medications, things to help with the bipolar disorder, because those are ups and downs in moods. Which is great. Right? Because some people may go that route with the medications, and some people may not go that route. That is a personal choice. I think what we have forgotten, and what is now beginning to happen... so I'm talking about old psychology, old social work. We never thought about trauma in those diagnoses. And now we're becoming a more trauma informed society, which is great.

So now we can bring that stuff into some of these diagnoses. So when I think about psychology, maybe there was a little bit of a clinical lean to it, and now there's becoming more of a trauma informed care. Social work is doing a great job with that, and psychology is doing a great job as well. So I think across the board, we can talk about how trauma has affected our mental health, which is the psychology, right? Of how we do things and how we view the world.

So I think when we talk about, "Girl, you need to go to the therapist, you got some stuff that handled." That's the psychology. Right. And that is being able to speak with someone to help you through the pain, and the traumas of what you've gone through in your life, in a way that they can help you to understand that you are not your trauma. That trauma is an experience that you experience, which may have caused you, to moving through the world a certain kind of way, and hopefully, the therapy psychology part of it, can help you see that, and help heal those wounds and change the behavior that you developed from those wound.

Dr. Dave:

Yes.

Tracy:

Does that make sense?

Dr. Dave:

That makes all the sense in the world, of how that practice can be used to help us really understand ourselves and the things that has happened to us.

Tracy:

Right.

Dr. Dave:

Right? And how can we heal from that? Sometimes, even some of those healing remedies, and I'm just calling them remedies, that they're going to be experienced differently. Right? Just based on the concept of if we're metabolizing that healing, into our mind, body and spirit. So what happens when it doesn't work? Or it's not working well? Or it even had... I'm asking more questions, or even has an adverse effect on the individual?

Tracy:

So that's a whole lot, what you just asked.

Dr. Dave:

I know. Well I'm talking to you so I'm expecting you to... throw stuff at me right?

Tracy:

Okay. Let's break that down.

Dr. Dave:

Let's unpack that. How's that?

Tracy:

Let's unpack that. So the idea is to not harm a person, or re-harm a person, or re-traumatize a person, as they go through healing, the goal is for them... so when I think about trauma, and what I'd like to say to people and... think of your life trauma or experiences as an observer, to try and detach from that serious physiological pain, that it may give you. And begin to look at it as a story, not that you didn't go through it, but as you were going through it, how were you feeling? What was your body doing? How was your body responding? And then you can break down the levels of trauma or the stages of trauma. There's... I learned... it's called ITR. I learned... gosh, I can't even think of the word. It's a process, it's a technique, it's a strategy. It's a healing modality. Right? And it is really breaking the trauma down into parts, or sections. Telling a story within that section, rewriting that entire... knowing that, that, story happened,

Tracy:

... and giving that story a finality, right? So there's the beginning, a middle and end, right?

Dr. Dave:

Yep.

Tracy:

So we've got these aspects of this story. We've got... I think I just went way off course, but here we go. Because you asked that question.

Dr. Dave:

It's not my fault.

Tracy:

You asked that question and here we go. So when we break down trauma, let's break it down into stages. So we've got a startle stage, like, "Oh shit, something's about to..." You know how you walk through life and you think, "Things are going way too good. That shoe is about to drop."

Dr. Dave:

Yeah, oh boy. Yeah, we always get that mindset, like, "Something's about to happen."

Tracy:

Yep. "Things have been going too smooth. I know something's about to come down." Right?

Dr. Dave:

Right.

Tracy:

If our bodies are always in that anxious state, that's like a startle. It's like when babies get startled and they're like... You got to brace yourself for that shit, right?

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. Yeah.

Tracy:

After you're startled, and then you go into this fight or flight, because you're like, "I got to get out of Dodge or I got to bulldoze this thing." Right? Sometimes we can't fight or flight, so what happens to a person is they freeze.

Dr. Dave:

Yep.

Tracy:

Right? So your body just goes... and you freeze and you can shut down. Right? So when we're freeze, maybe we could call that depression or something, in a freeze state. Okay? When I'm frozen, I got this thing where, if I'm frozen, I really don't want to be here. I'm just going to check out of my reality. Right? So I'm going to dissociate.

Dr. Dave:

Yes.

Tracy:

And when people dissociate with trauma, some of us get stuck in the dissociation. Right? And we get really good at not feeling the feels. We get really good at not letting folks affect us. So we put up these walls, so that we don't feel the stuff, and that's dissociating. And sometimes we can do that so well, we might get a diagnosis from that. We don't know what that is, but a diagnosis could come from that.

Dr. Dave:

Certainly. [crosstalk 00:15:09].

Tracy:

So if I'm going through a traumatic event, I got the startle, this fight or flight, I got this freeze, I'm going to check out, because I don't want to deal with the pain that I'm going through. But then something about the brain says, "You know what? You can't stay out here forever. So you're just going to obey and do what you need to do in order to live." Because sometimes we feel like we're going to die.

Dr. Dave:

Well, certainly. Yeah.

Tracy:

Right?

Dr. Dave:

As you were talking about that disassociation, I was thinking of Jeffrey Dahmer. I don't know why he came into mind, but-

Tracy:

I don't either, but tell me more about that.

Dr. Dave:

Well, I'm just thinking about, to be able to have someone for lunch or dinner, how much of a disassociation has to take place that you get to that place?

Tracy:

Yeah.

Dr. Dave:

Right.

Tracy:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Dave:

I mean...

Tracy:

What a state that is.

Dr. Dave:

I don't remember if I was living in Wisconsin or Illinois at the time when that was taking place, but it kind of freaked me out a lot.

Tracy:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Dave:

You know?

Tracy:

Yeah. I mean, to hack up a body, to have body parts in your refrigerator, I mean, that takes a level of dissociation, right?

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

Wow. Wow. It's that kid that is in the classroom, that they're daydreaming out the window or they're doing something and you're like, "Yo. Hey, are you here?" And you're like, "Hey, what? Yeah, I'm here." But they weren't, right?

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

You don't know what's been going on at home so that they can do that. Right?

Dr. Dave:

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Sorry.

Tracy:

So, that child feels, "Okay, I got to get out of this space." After they dissociate, then they have to automatically obey. Because if the teacher goes... "Dave, stop daydreaming."

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. "Wake up."

Tracy:

"Come back here. And then, you're going to be like, "Okay, sorry," and you going to do what that teacher says, right?

Dr. Dave:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Tracy:

So that's automatic obedience. And that's what we do when we want to stay safe. We get into automatic obedience. After we take all that energy to do what we're supposed to do, so we don't die, so we can survive, we got to do this thing called self-repair.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

And sometimes we choose things that aren't the best for us to self-repair. Right? And then, we see that with addictions, right?

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

We see a lot of, "You know, what? I don't want to deal with that stuff. So I'm going to go over here and do this, so I don't have to think about this." Right? Because we've gone through all those stages and we are worn out, and we can't do anymore, so we're just going to, at that point, self-repair. During all these things, our bodies are going through stuff with that. Right?

Dr. Dave:

Well, certainly. Yeah.

Tracy:

So we've got to figure that... Okay, so what did... You said a whole lot in that, and that led me to all of this trauma talk, because holy shit, my brain just went, "Okay, where are we going?"

Dr. Dave:

I was just being open-ended because I was thinking from a clinical context, but I was also thinking about, from the trauma that people experience in corporate America. And I could remember working for a very large organization in Chicago. Well, I could talk about them. They no longer exist. Arthur Andersen, Andersen Consulting. They no longer exist anymore.

Tracy:

What happened to Arthur Andersen? Why don't they no longer exist?

Dr. Dave:

Our government shut them down because they did some illegal stuff and they revoked their auditing license, so they couldn't... Their core business was auditing, so they couldn't make any more money doing auditing, right?

Tracy:

Oh. Oh, wow.

Dr. Dave:

Yep.

Tracy:

Okay.

Dr. Dave:

Our Congress did that.

Tracy:

Okay. Hmm... I did not know. All right.

Dr. Dave:

Yep, yep. So that's what happened to that organization.

Tracy:

Okay.

Dr. Dave:

But I remember one night we were working in these crazy projects and this lady was just on her desk screaming. I had no idea, and we're all they're working late and we're trying to figure out how to help her, and she was just screaming. And because I was a medic in the military, then automatically want me to go in there and go, deal with what's going on. So I'm trying to talk to her, and she thinks that's... She just lost it. And, you know-

Tracy:

So she lost her connection with reality? So she dissociate-

Dr. Dave:

With reality.

Tracy:

Right?

Dr. Dave:

Yeah, she totally disassociated. And then I saw her, either weeks or months later, and she was in a different space. I met this bubbly, chuck, "I'm going to run through this wall" individual, to this person who was just like on her desk, screaming, freaking out like the world had... There was something bad happening there. And then all of a sudden, I saw her, and it's probably the meds that were affecting the way she responded, because she was more like a drone, you know? Or, I think-

Tracy:

She was in a heightened state when you, she was ready to knock down walls when you met her, and then she got to a breaking point. And then, the next time you saw her, she was very subdued.

Dr. Dave:

Very subdued.

Tracy:

Okay. Yeah.

Dr. Dave:

And I'm going like, wow, just going through that experience. As we were talking about disassociation and the trauma. And we never knew really what was the trauma, but working in those high-stressed type corporations...

Tracy:

Yep.

Dr. Dave:

... they'll break you.

Tracy:

Yep.

Dr. Dave:

They will break you because of the demand that they'll have on you. So it was just, and that's where my brain, the flight or fight.

Tracy:

Yeah. No, no, no. I get that.

Dr. Dave:

[crosstalk 00:20:52] thing.

Tracy:

We're going to come back to that, right?

Dr. Dave:

We'll come back to it.

Tracy:

That goes back to if she had had trauma, if she had trauma entering this position, and if she was in a place, because this is where someone could say maybe she had bipolar disorder, or maybe she had severe depression, or maybe she had mania, or maybe she, all of these clinical diagnosis, someone would... Okay, she was at a really high point, and then she was at a breaking point, and now she's at a low point. Right?

If there had been trauma, there could've been a way that she masked how the trauma affected her by having this persona of, "I can knock down walls." And then, she gets into this job where this causes undue stress on her, which activates a lot of what the trauma response is. And then, she has a breaking point and her brain cannot, her body cannot, her soul cannot do that anymore.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

And then she collapses. Right? So if we look at that trauma response, she collapses, and then she's going to figure out how to get out of that. And she was probably hospitalized or something like that-

Dr. Dave:

She was.

Tracy:

... and put on some meds. Right, right.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. And then, she no longer worked there, right? She resigned.

Tracy:

And then, I wonder if the trauma was ever addressed. See, that's where sometimes the... Sometimes there's a... Today, probably not so much, but in the past, trauma would not have been addressed. We even talk about trauma amongst the races. Right?

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

Because historically, we think of trauma as being shellshocked, as the war response to, or the effect, the psychological response to war, because we've been through so much, we've seen so much as a war vet, then we've got this trauma response and that's acceptable, because then we expect it. But think about-

Dr. Dave:

Yeah, we could drag that into what we see happening in the inner cities, right?

Tracy:

I was just getting ready to say that.

Dr. Dave:

I'm sure that's where you were... Yeah. Okay, you go girl.

Tracy:

Yeah. Because if we see how war affects the soldier, no one was looking at the parallel of living within a certain cultural community or a certain violent community where you see gunshots, knife stabbings, violence, domestic violence, every day as your norm-

Dr. Dave:

Every day.

Tracy:

... every day as your norm. And these particular people in this community have been diagnosed with so much shit. Instead of looking at, "Oh, they're kind of like a soldier. Going through all of this daily trauma, how do we help them with that and process that trauma?" We're getting so much better at right now.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. Well, or even labeling, right? Because it's like, there's something wrong with these people why they can't deal with...

Tracy:

Right.

Dr. Dave:

While I'm like, hey, just imagine if you had to live through that, what would you be like? You'd probably be like the woman that I worked with-

Tracy:

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Dr. Dave:

... that ended up on that desk, screaming as if... Something crazy was happening in her space at that time.

Tracy:

Yep. And I'm going to ask you to stop saying crazy-

Dr. Dave:

Yep, yep.

Tracy:

... because...

Dr. Dave:

Did I say so something crazy happening?

Tracy:

You've said it five times probably in our conversation today.

Dr. Dave:

But I didn't call her crazy, right? I didn't label her as crazy. I just talk about the experience as crazy. I hope I did that, right?

Tracy:

Yeah, well-

Dr. Dave:

Okay, good.

Tracy:

Let's not use crazy.

Dr. Dave:

What term would you like to use? What paranormal term you would like to use?

Tracy:

Oh, wow. You just went there, didn't... You just had-

Dr. Dave:

I didn't have to go there, right?

Tracy:

Paranormal. Wow. I'm surprised you didn't say, "What esoteric term would you like to use?"

Dr. Dave:

I'm just.. Yeah, you know?

Tracy:

No, people are just having some issues. It's really that. It-

Dr. Dave:

Yeah, having a hard time.

Tracy:

They're having a hard time, right? Because when we label it as crazy, then there's a certain expectation that you can't even talk to them.  "She crazy," or "He crazy."

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

Mm-mm (negative). People just going through shit. And I don't know if we, and that forgiveness piece? The grace to be understanding with people, because we go through stuff, and we don't know how our stuff affects another person's stuff, and we don't always know how their stuff affects us.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. It's a trigger.

Tracy:

Because we may not, we may not know what activates us. And I like to call it an activation.

Dr. Dave:

An

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Dr. Dave:

Activation versus the trigger, and yeah.

Tracy:

Yeah. The trigger warnings as people call them. That can be triggering for people. Right. Because of aah.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. Truly. Yeah.

Tracy:

Yeah. That's my paranormal term for trigger activation.

Dr. Dave:

Activation. We'll use the word activation that's for the trigger.

Tracy:

It's just a gentler term. Yeah.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, the type of training that you go through, and the language that people use. Well, let's talk about experiencing healing in a community setting. To me, it's extraordinarily powerful, and provides this opportunity to receive, as well as to give in the journey, really. As we're starting to develop this route before the truth, what has that been like for you as you're working through bringing healing in a community setting? Or, I could use a different word, group setting. Probably what I'm really referring to.

Tracy:

Yeah. Well, group and community are both good because we do need to educate the community that these things are going on so that they can be a little more aware of how they interact with people. I think the community that really needs work is the policing community.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

Having the policing community understand how this stuff affects people would be very helpful. How we can heal within the group community, or group setting. It goes back to belonging, Dave. There's a lot of power in being in a group where you feel like you belong, and that that group is supportive in holding space. You can show up as you are, without the mask, and the performance, and the things that we do in order to protect ourselves from even feeling our own emotions. I think that groups can be very healing, and some can... If the groups aren't led by a healed healer, they can be a little more destructive because we've got these wounded healers helping heal people, and wounded healers, good God. They're bad wounded healers. We're all wounded in some kind of way.

Dr. Dave:

Some way. Yeah.

Tracy:

It's the healer who's done the work so that they can support others in the work. And some-

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. So like-

Tracy:

Go ahead.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. We were just talking about Resmaa and My Grandmother's Hands. He talks about the work that he has done with different police officers in trying to bring about healing throughout. So I mean-

Tracy:

Healing my community is important. People who have mental health issues that are not treated, that have been untreated, and their behavior may be maybe displayed as a little aberrant for community. That's when the police are called in to handle these situations when they may not be the right people to have come in, or they haven't been trained to understand if this person is having a psychological issue, or if there's really a threat for all of that. It could be a communication thing. I think the really, really helping to educate police who want to be educated, who will be on call for those calls, is what's important. I don't know if you can make a whole police department learn all this, because they may not want to. The people may not be equipped to do the thing.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. Well, I would see this as a partnership that would take place. Like what's happening in a lot of communities today, where you have an advocate who's partnering with a police officer, or couple of police officers, to help to deal with this. Look, it's a hard skill to learn. It takes years of practice to be able to work with someone who's activated by whatever it is that's going on in their lives in that moment. I like to look at it. Go ahead.

Tracy:

That's interesting that you said it takes years to learn. Having had very, very many, many psychology students, and training students to become clinicians, and in internships, it can be learned. However, what I've seen is the most effective is for people who naturally have it. There are people who are-

Dr. Dave:

They're gifted that way.

Tracy:

... They naturally have that ability to hold space for people, to support people, to be there for people. I haven't run into very many people that I've trained, who have had to learn the skill, because they've got it.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

Right. Yeah.

Dr. Dave:

Okay. That's a very insightful perspective to look at that. Not only just in the context of police officers getting better at that, but in group sessions, where people are giving and receiving, where people are helping to heal each other in that space. I know that in some of the work that I'm doing with some of my corporate clients, we begin to see that. They're not only receiving in the process, but they're also giving in the journey, as well, which is beautiful. Right?

Tracy:

It's huge. There's an accountability in that space. I worked with domestic violence perpetrators, and they're all men. To be able to work within that population, to me, was such a gift because how these men held each other accountable within the group setting, was a beautiful thing to see. Right?

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

It was a beautiful thing to see them heal from their own traumas, in order to help support others to heal through their traumas. We didn't have 100% success rate, but the rate that we did have of those who did do the work was really beautiful to see. In turn, they could see how their traumas were activated in their relationships. There was a parallel program, at one point, where the women who were the survivors, the partners of the perpetrators-

Dr. Dave:

The partner. Yeah.

Tracy:

... did work. The men did the work at the same time. Some of those couples, of course, reconciled and were able to be successful. Some were, "This is not a good space for me." It didn't happen. It was really beautiful to see that, and to know that in that kind of group setting, there could be healing. There was healing, and they did support one another. It was a really beautiful thing to see a bunch of dudes sitting around, crying, and loving up on each other, and supporting each other. Right?

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. Letting it out, because as men, we don't like to let it out. We won't let out. But, the fact that they could let that out-

Tracy:

Yeah.

Dr. Dave:

... so they can have that beautiful experience.

Tracy:

Sometimes the only emotion that you learn is anger, and you got to figure out how to deal with that, and how to process it.

Dr. Dave:

It may not just be anger. It may also be suppression. The thing is, "Big boys don't cry. Big boys don't feel." What are you doing? Those are the things that you may learn growing up in your home, or in your community.

Tracy:

Right. Yeah. If not learned in your home, somebody's going to tell you, "Boys are tough."

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

"Boys don't cry."

Dr. Dave:

Boys don't cry.

Tracy:

"There's no crying in sports."

Dr. Dave:

There's no whining either.

Tracy:

There's no whining in sports.

Dr. Dave:

Knock it off. Yeah. Yeah.

Tracy:

Yeah. Very interesting.

Dr. Dave:

I'm thinking the root before the fruit. It's core to experiencing a sustainable-

Tracy:

I'm sorry. I have to say this. Every time you say root before the fruit, do you remember John Witherspoon in, oh, my God, saying the rooter to the tooter, that you eat the whole pig.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. Yeah.

Tracy:

The rooter to the tooter. That's all I think about when I hear that.

Dr. Dave:

When you hear me say the root before the fruit?

Tracy:

They're rooter to the tooter.

Dr. Dave:

Oh, we're not doing the rooter to the tooter. We're doing the rooter to the fruiter.

Tracy:

Oh, my God. That's so dumb. Okay.

Dr. Dave:

What I'm saying is that, look it's core to experiencing this sustainable mind, body, and spirit healing effect. That's what we're looking at. When there's no root, the healing will not stick. The individual become discouraged because of some of the failures that they may experience. What is that like? When people doesn't have the ability to absorb, and experience the healing so that it could be sustainable, that they could go off and do the work on their own. In the end of the day, even though you and I may have the best intentions and the best skills-

Tracy:

Yep.

Dr. Dave:

... it takes that individual, or that group, to go forward, and do that work, and make those changes. It's only way healing happens. Let's talk about that a bit more.

Tracy:

Yeah. That goes back to the body. If one is grounded in their body, they can build, and dig into their own roots. The body becomes that space of safety. When I'm in a space where my body has betrayed me, or has been traumatized, or I have been holding on and suppressing, if it's not a safe place for me to be in my body, I'm not going to be able to do the work because my body is the root of all of the work. That's what grounds me so that I can do the work. That's the somatic part of healing. We have to do the somatic part of healing in order for healing to occur. It's like a tree. When I work with my clients to do the healing work, I actually go through a meditation before we do it.

I have them plant their feet down on the floor, and maybe hands on their knees, but I send them through a light meditation, and we go through the whole body. Then once we get to the feet, I have them visualize roots growing out of the bottom of their feet, moving through the floor, the basement, all the layers of the earth, planted right into the core of the earth. I sometimes say, "I want you to hear it kind of Glink, like you've really touched the earth, and you are grounded, and you are planted here, safely in your body." Then I have them pull their roots back up, but still stay tethered to the earth. Then have them build a really big, beautiful bubble around their body, so they feel protected, and then also have them connect themselves to spirit, so that they're connected above and below, so that they are here grounded, yet they're still connected to the strength of spirit, so that they can do the work.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

That takes a lot of practice, Dave.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. It takes a lot of work.

Tracy:

I agree, when you're escaping your body, your whole life.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

Even for men. Men are, "What the fuck are you talking about being in my body? What is that?"

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

The first place they go, I don't mean to be whatever. The first place they usually go is right into the groin area. That's where I'm grounded in my body. Right?

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

I'm, "Come on. Really?" If that's what I got, I'm going to work with it. Right?

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

I'm, "Okay, let's ground yourself in your, whatever, your testosterone-

Dr. Dave:

Whatever it is.

Dr. Dave:

Whatever it is.

Tracy:

Your space, whatever that space is, let's get grounded. Right.

Dr. Dave:

Right.

Tracy:

And to be completely honest, that's not a bad place to go. Because the root. So if we talk about an ancient old, here we go with the woo, woo, woo paranormal. As you call it. I don't think it's that [crosstalk 00:39:21] at all. But I work with the chakra system. Right. So I work with the energetic system of the body. And the first chakra is the root chakra, which is at the base of the spine. Which is where the prostate is living. That's where the prostate lives.

Dr. Dave:

Pretty much. Yeah.

Tracy:

That's right where the... So that to me is the root. And if we go into the root of the person and get grounded in that root chakra, then we can do the work. And then we work up. We work up through the chakra, through the bottom.

Dr. Dave:

Well, that's the rooter to fruiter because that fruiter is produced the seed, which brings life. Right.

Tracy:

Well, I mean, it's the rooter to the tooter because the tooter's in the head, right? It's the nose. It's the snout to the butt. So it really is that kind of idea.

Dr. Dave:

I was just thinking about this one guy that was just coaching and dealing with the fact that he was just difficult. And it just having conversation with him about being aware and mindfulness and what does it take to get there. And what's causing him to have some of the challenges that he's having with people. One day he just came in, he goes Dr. Dave, I'm just not being very mindful at times. And this is something that I'm going to work on. I said that's a beautiful thing. I'm glad that you arrived at this space. And I can't wait to see what what's going to be next for you.

Then he spent him walking through it beginning to learn more about just being aware about what he's saying, how he respond to other people. And it's not, he didn't mean anything bad, but the way he came off to... And especially to some of the women that he was working with. Oh my God, they hated him. But over time for him doing that work and coming to that realization, right. That he needed to be grounded in something. And he chose that. And so that was great to see.

Tracy:

Yeah. How you started that off, when you said this person I was working with and he was really difficult.

Dr. Dave:

Yes.

Tracy:

I even changed that verbiage. Because he was not purposefully trying to be difficult.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

He had behaviors that made it difficult for him to communicate with people.

Dr. Dave:

Or connect with people too.

Tracy:

Or connect with people. Right. And I would really, really want, I want people to reframe how they view... Because what we do is if this dude is difficult and he becomes, I'm not saying you did this, but I'm just saying in general, right. I'm on label this cat difficult, which means it's a character flaw. So I'm going to judge it and everything he judge, or that he does that supports my idea of him being difficult, becomes even stronger. If I look at this dude that whoa, he has some really, really difficult ways that he responds, which prevents him from connecting with people. Gives me a whole nother view of him. And maybe I can allow him some grace and I can be mindful and how I communicate with him.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. Right. So that's the language of people describing him. Right.

Tracy:

Yep.

Dr. Dave:

Even though they see it as a behavioral issue, the language and the label is that this is a very difficult person to deal with.

Tracy:

Yeah.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. So.

Tracy:

And to help him reframe that, because I'm sure he's heard that. That he's difficult.

Dr. Dave:

I'm sure he did. Yeah.

Tracy:

And to say there must be some things that cause you to be activated, not you, this is what I would say as a clinician or a therapist. That there's some things that you probably have experienced that causes you to respond in the way that would seem difficult to other people. Your response would seem difficult to other people. And then I would have him go, can you look at that from an observer lens and see when that happens. And then he would be like, oh yeah, it happens this, this, this and this. And I'd be like, what is your body feeling when you respond? That's the work right there. Because he'll be like, as soon as somebody says something my shoulders go up, because I feel this tension in my body and then we start working there.

Dr. Dave:

Right. So some of that stuff was driven from a cultural context for him and the way he grew up. But the way we did the work that we... Our sessions were always walking sessions and I intentionally took him outside and had the walking session. To bring about a different energy for him. As opposed to that was being in a room and because at first we were in a room and then I'm like yo, let's go for a walk. And that changes the whole dynamic of the conversation, how we listened to each other, how we responded to each other. So that was really powerful.

Tracy:

Yeah. Bravo for [crosstalk 00:44:44].

Dr. Dave:

It didn't save his job just to let you know. But the fact is that he grew for the months that I saw him after his awareness. He grew tremendously and had a different relationship with others in the workspace.

Tracy:

Yeah. And maybe the goal wasn't for him, I mean the goal is to keep the job, but maybe his own personal journey goal was to not stay there and to be able to show his work somewhere else. And I applaud you for taking him walking. In Wisconsin we have this beautiful Lake Michigan.

Dr. Dave:

Yep.

Tracy:

And Milwaukee has a beautiful lake front. And I walked with my clients many, many, many days. I even had a client and it was 15 degrees below zero.

Dr. Dave:

Don't miss those days, Tracy.

Tracy:

Bruh. And this particular client, they wanted to walk no matter what the weather was.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

Because it was... There's something of on going side by side with somebody where you don't have to look them in the eye that they just start... Just, blah. And it was great. And it also is, it's a release. It's that body getting involved with the healing because the body's got to release too. And that's what walking helps them to do.

Dr. Dave:

Without a doubt. Without a doubt. Walking is just such a healing tool.

Tracy:

Yeah. Yeah. I've even gone running with clients like a quick 15, 20 minute run. And then after the run we do the session. It's beautiful.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. I'll be on the ground. I'll be like a guppy out water. A fish out of water.

Tracy:

Right.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Tracy:

Yeah.

Dr. Dave:

Well, hey, let's wrap up. This has been an amazing conversation.

Tracy:

This is, yeah. I just start, you put a quarter in me today and it was just like...

Dr. Dave:

And sorry for stacking questions originally. Because I just couldn't control myself.  I'm like, you know you're stacking questions. Right?

Tracy:

No worries. I think we got through at least two of them. I don't know if we got through all of them.

Dr. Dave:

We got through enough that we did provides enough value. So let me close and say thank you for listening to the KnolShare with Dr. Dave podcast. Our conversation today was about the root before the fruit. The rooter before the fruiter. Look, the healing journey is difficult. I could tell you that. And so we have to have this intentional effort that will help us to develop deep roots so that there can be an abundance of fruits. Fruits produced in healing. So there's no shortcut. We must engage and do the work. So I hope this learning experience prompted you to seek to discover more ways to find your level of awesomeness.

That's what I want. And so just to give acknowledgement, the KnolShare with Dr. Dave podcast streamed on Spotify, iTunes, Audible, and Google play. Hello, Kayana Brown Hendrickson. Thank you for dropping the music for this podcast. This podcast is copyright 2022 by Dr. Dave Cornelius. And I'll share that org and I am eternally grateful for the partnership that I have with my friend Tracy Treacy, who have known for a very long time. And she said something very interesting. You know Dave, I have known you most of my adult life. Which is a good thing, so crazy.

Tracy:

Yeah. That is interesting. Isn't it? Wow.

Dr. Dave:

Wow.

Tracy:

That's a long ass time.

Dr. Dave:

No, it's a good ass time.

Tracy:

It's a good time. But it's a lot of years, bro. That's cool to maintain relationship with people that you've known 30 plus years.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah, yeah.

Tracy:

Wild.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. It's called love.

Tracy:

That's what it is.

Dr. Dave:

That's what it's called.

Tracy:

That's exactly what it is. Yeah.

Dr. Dave:

Patience and kindness. It's called love.

Tracy:

Yeah. Yeah. And deep respect.

Dr. Dave:

Yes. Without a doubt. All of that.

Tracy:

All of that.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. I just had a, I was reflecting there for a moment. I was thinking about the day of your wedding, that I was out playing softball in a white suit. On a softball field with your husband.

Tracy:

And on that note.

Dr. Dave:

See yah soon.

Tracy:

Peace out, we're done.

 

Kayanna: (Singing)