EAFH54: Salah Elleithy – Listening to Acknowledge Different Voices

Dr. Dave:

Hello and welcome to the KnolShare with Dr. Dave Podcast. This is Dr. Dave Cornelius, your host. And today I am having the wonderful opportunity of having a conversation with Salah. And then I am going to tell you that, just give you a definition of social justice, right? The way we define it, or the way we've captured it is social justice is the view that everyone deserves equal economic, political and social rights and opportunities that social work-, social workers aim to open the doors of access, opportunity for everyone, particularly those in the greatest needs. So when we think about all of the different ways that we want to think about social justice, we could think of it in terms of equal rights, equal opportunity and equal treatment. So in short, social justice being equal rights and equitable opportunities for all. So, hey, Salah, what's going on? Why don't you take a minute and provide like a quick elevator pitch about who you are and I always like to talk about people's superhero persona, right? Yeah.

Salah:

Yes. Yeah, no, I appreciate it and, and thanks for inviting me. And I like this idea of superhero persona. I would say my superhero persona is mostly, is a super curious and courageous kid who gets to ask why over and over and get to, and then get to ask it again. And my kids reminds me of that constantly especially when, and when it's not why, it's why not. But jokes aside, I am a certified coach, collective coach, and also I'm an ICF professional certified coach. And my focus has been on Agile coaching for the last 10 years or so. And I like to facilitate teams and individuals and help leaders and teams become better one day at a time. I also like to help individuals balance, individuals, teams and leaders, balance clarity with action. And my mission is really to spark courageous curiosity with play and hopefully sprinkle a little sense of humor on that as well. But that's in a nutshell.

Dr. Dave:

So let me ask you this, right. How does social justice challenges show up in your experience as an Agile coach?

Salah:

Yeah, for me, the social justice shows up in different ways. I'll focus maybe on a couple and see where that takes us. But the main one that I see often is acknowledgement. How do we acknowledge, does the company or the team or the group acknowledge the different voices and invite the different perspectives at the table and welcome dissent and have different views of things or are the voices being ignored? These voices are being ignored and the dominant voices or the dominant voice continues to be the dominant? I believe that leadership has a big role in this, encouraging and inviting different voices to the table and sometimes, as coaches, coaching, even though we know that it's not about telling people what to do, but it's about showing or holding a mirror for what's going on in the group.

So that's where, as a coach and as a leader, I try to invite the voices and allow for equal opportunities and different perspectives in the group. So, that's one. The other one is listening. So listening to what's going on, how things are being discussed. I usually say, or I learned, in my journey that if you want to gauge a culture of a company or a group, just attend their meeting and see how they interact with each other. And listening goes hand in hand with the expression. It's one thing to encourage expression and to encourage this openness in culture, but it's another thing to pay attention and listen to what's really going on. And not just to what's being said but what's, what remains to be unsaid.

So it takes, that's another thing that feels, as an Agile coach, I don't only have to continue to invite the group and have people share their perspectives and try to help the voices that are quiet in the group, say what they, what's on their mind. And so that's another, another one is listening. And then the last one is the right to asking good questions. Asking good questions and having this curiosity around what's going on with some people who are not really sharing their ideas and their stories and their frustrations. And I find that to be one of the things that it, that doesn't, that usually doesn't come up often is asking questions. Being curious about what's happening with the group, what's happening with an individual.

And I have been learning, I know when we talked last time, we talked about Clean Language. I've been learning about Clean Language recently and one of the saying that I learned from the Clean Language community is this idea of where attention goes, energy flows and one of the most powerful way to direct attention and energy is a good question, is a question. Those are three main things that show up in my work as an Agile coach. And I think it's applicable not just to teams and companies, but to communities as well.

Dr. Dave:

That's excellent. I'm glad that you're using Clean Language. I mean, that is a great practice, to be able to come up with various models. So sometimes I find that when I'm in a conversation about diversity, equity and inclusion, sometimes I feel that people speak to me as if I'm a victim. What about you?

Salah:

Yeah. If I think back, I may have, there maybe have been instances where I felt that way. I think in the beginning of my professional journey, I sense that in some ways but I think today maybe because I've been working on myself and how to take what people say at face value,

Salah:

I mean sometimes, obviously, you have to understand where the person is coming from, or what are they trying to say? Not what they actually said.

But I don't think that I have felt that someone's spoke to me as a victim. I don't, or at least I don't remember, maybe, but I think that's probably possible, because I'm focusing on improving the dialogue, and seeing, what's going on with that person?

If they're trying to have a conversation, and they're trying to connect, is this their idea of connecting? Or is that more like, they're trying to feel sorry for me? Usually, I don't buy into people trying to make me feel sorry for myself, or feel sorry for me.

Dr. Dave:

Well, I understand that. But what, in terms of, have you observed that, where others are speaking, when we're talking about DEI, that others are speaking of other people as if they're victims in the process?

Salah:

I'm trying to think of an example, especially within the community that I'm part of, the agile community, if I have seen something that, or heard about someone speaking about someone as a victim. I don't recall some of these discussions, having someone speaking about someone as a victim.

I recall the work that we've been doing is to bring other people to the table, and trying to figure out, how do we contribute to equity and social justice in the community? That's really, I guess, again, maybe that's where I'm paying attention more. Like, the thing with clean language I had just mentioned, "Where attention goes, energy flows."

My energy is trying to focus on, how do we improve the dialogue of social justice? How do we improve the equity in the community, where people in the BIPOC community has more opportunities and expression, and bring more diversity too, in our community? So I may have not been paying attention to that, the dialogue about someone trying to make other person feel like a victim.

Dr. Dave:

No, that's fair. That's fair. What about the economic impact of social injustice in your life?

Salah:

That's an interesting question. It's hard to quantify the economic impact, but in the beginning of my journey and professional journey, I thought naively that equal opportunities exist for everyone, it's a fair game and all that, but now I know different. I realize that's not the case. There is a lot of work to be done in this domain.

But I think there is some impact, economic impact on me, or people like me, but I never took a step back to evaluate, what is the economic impact, or maybe put a number on it.

I know for a fact that there is an intangible aspect of it. It's more of a psychological impact, or a safety impact.

That definitely comes with, that could have another dimension, which is the economic impact. If I'm not feeling like I can speak up or express my views in a way that is authentic, then that can come with an economic impact, that can have an economic impact on my work.

Dr. Dave:

Understood. So let's pivot, and talk about a few actions that you're taking personally to improve opportunities for black, Indigenous and people of color, BIPOC, and the agile community.

Salah:

Yeah. Actually, the past couple of years, I've been taking a few actions, or more actions, to help in that area. And I'm definitely hoping to do more with that.

One of the things that come to mind, the first thing that comes to mind, is basically this dialogue that we had last year, that was facilitated by April Jefferson, in opening the space around the dialogue with the Agile Alliance, and the agile community, and trying to invite different perspectives and work together to find ways to encourage more BIPOC voices and representation, in the group, in the community.

Another thing that I really was hoping to do, or I did last year and early last year before the pandemic was, I co-organized an agile conference called Agile Charm, in Baltimore. As far as I know, that's one of the first agile conferences in the area, besides the Dev Ops Conference that has been happening in Baltimore, for three years before then.

One of the things that we were keen on as a group, as co-organizers, is to find a diverse group of speakers. We tried to balance and invite different voices, and have a really diverse group, in terms of who speaks to the conference, and that sort of thing.

The last year, also, or actually, recently, I came across an organization called Coaching for Everyone, which has a mission to really bring more professional coaching to the BIPOC community. It has been offering, not just access to coaching for BIPOC population, but also, it's helping people become professional coaches themselves.

So, not only helping people to become professional coaches, and help the community in that area, but also sponsor or help support people in the BiPOC population become professional coaches themselves.

Salah:

Then I'm hoping next year I'll be part of the Agile for Humanity, and support that work, as well. And yeah, I mean, these are things that are just off the top of my mind, but I'm really interested in supporting and giving back to the community, based on, and sharing my experience and my journey, and hopefully, people find it useful.

Dr. Dave:

Well, I can't wait to hear your topic in the Agile for Humanity conference next year, February. So I'm totally excited that you are willing to participate.

Salah:

Yeah, absolutely. I know you mentioned it last time we spoke, and I was really excited to be part of it, and to support any way I can. So I can't wait for next year, to see what you have, and support it.

Dr. Dave:

Likewise. So let's talk about significant changes you would like to see, to support BIPOC and non-BIPOC integration in the agile community, because we know there's a huge disparity. The question is that, what kind of changes you would like to see, take place?

Salah:

Yeah, there are some things that I would like to see happen. I think some of it is already happening, like the open spaces, or the conversation, the dialogue that has been hosted recently.

I would like to see that happen more often, having people share their experience, share their stories, also build this network of people who can support each other, in terms of professional work, and also, in personal growth and development. That's one area.

Then the other is to be intentional about these spaces. Sometimes, this is a difficult conversation. This is not an easy conversation to have, especially if people are not, haven't had it before, they haven't been able to bring it up.

It helps to be intentional about building that kind of space that will allow for people to express their perspectives and their thoughts freely. And how do we design for that?

There is a book, I think, that I recently came across, and it's called The Art of Gathering, or something like that. It's just like designing open spaces, or designing open space, using open space. But it's also being intentional about how do we set up that space or gathering, for people to be able to express their views, and encourage the dialogue?

I think the last thing that I would really like to see is some sort of concrete and actionable steps, for us as a community. If there is this disparity, and I know that it exists, how we bring this disparity closer, or find ways to encourage more coaches from the BIPOC, to be able to find opportunities?

And whether it's support through coaching, or through mentorship programs, just like the organization I mentioned, the Coaching for Everyone, it's doing this type of work in the professional coaching world. Maybe that's something that we could do in the agile community, sponsored by the Agile Alliance, or some other organizations in the agile space.

So, some sort of action, and concrete steps forward. It's good to have the dialogue, but then, what next? What's next for us to do, after the dialogue?

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. I'm a big fan of the, "So what, now what?"

Salah:

Yes, exactly.

Dr. Dave:

Right? We talk about all this stuff. "What are we going to do about it?"

Salah:

Yeah.

Dr. Dave:

Right? But I think that-

Salah:

How do we develop, what we do next?

Dr. Dave:

... Yes. Yes, exactly. But one thing, I like to talk about utopia, and in terms of, if we have to have diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, what would that utopia look like for you?

Because in order for us to know what to do, we need to have a vision, right? I like to go to the maximum edge of time, or edge of the vision, and say, "Well, what does that look like?"

Salah:

Yeah. Yeah, that's a tough and power question. I mean that, what it would look like in the future, or utopia. I imagine, I think the key word in the question that you framed is this idea of belonging.

I think it's important to have that sense of belonging. To have a sense of belonging, there needs to be some, people need to feel heard and seen. I know it might not be utopia, but it might be simple, but it's not easy.

Because I don't think that sense of belonging is there, or at least, you still need to be intentional about creating that sense of belonging, as a community, or as coaches in the agile space, working with organizations to help teams deliver work.

The way that we do that is by creating a shared purpose, common goal, and bringing everyone voice to the table. We need to do the same thing for the community.

How do we create that sense of belonging, and be intentional about creating the sense of belonging? I don't know if that's utopia, but that's my utopia I just have, is to have that shared sense of belonging.

Dr. Dave:

Well, everyone is going to have their own utopia, right? The key is to make sure that everyone's utopia is heard and expressed. Maybe we may do a mashup, like a mashup of all of our utopias, and something beautiful will come out of that expression, right?

Salah:

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I know you're interviewing me, but I would like to know, what's your utopia? What do you think utopia looks like?

Dr. Dave:

I sit in a space with you, where it's simple. It's about belonging, and I believe that's where it starts. If you don't have a vision of where you want to go, it's hard to go somewhere.

I mean, you'll get somewhere, where you just don't know where. But I believe that having a vision of what belonging looks like for each of us individually, or even collectively, it's a really important first step. Then we could go back and do know what all of the

Dr. Dave:

The other stuff of healing and trauma along that path. But if we have a vision we can certainly work too at that, right? In small steps.

Salah:

Yeah. I think finding people that we can relate to and who share our story or experience, or have some sort of idea about... to connect with what we're saying is very important. And that's part of the belonging is... if there is no shared experience or at least we are not creating that shared experience as a community, then it's going to be very hard to have that sense of belonging and it's going to be very hard to get to that utopia or get where we want to get to.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. But as each of us as the individuals and as a collective continue to do this work, right? The conversation that I had in your podcast, the coaching conversation, the fact that you're on my podcast and this broadcast is also in partnership with Agile Alliance. So for the last year I've been having conversations with people about their experience in the Agile community, dealing with social justice, or as BIPOC individuals. I think the more of these that we do have it gives us space. It starts to create this space organically that we could start organizing around different topics and different commonalities that we have.

Salah:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as you know, the first step usually in change or coaching people to help them with changes to bring awareness and raising awareness, like you said, by talking about it and having these conversations can help... at least can lead to change or can lead to... What's next? Now what? Right? Then now what?

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. So now what, right? I mean it's beautiful. So it's one of the reasons why we have the whole Agile for Humanity conference. Because it's an aim to bring many different voices to have different conversations. So we want to see where that leads to.

Salah:

Yeah, yeah. It's very... the kind of work that you're doing, and you're kind of trying to build the community around having these conversation is very similar to the work that we're doing in organization. So if... We're doing this in organization and we need to also do it in our community where we can bring or support different groups, people who are under represented or underestimated into the Agile space and that will help us create that sense of belonging that we're talking about.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. Without a doubt. Hey, is there anything else you'd like to add as we wrap up our conversation?

Salah:

I'm really happy to be on your podcast. I'm honored that you invited me and I appreciate all the work that you do for the community and how you're pushing the limits and bringing this to the discussion and to have these conversations and dialogue. So I appreciate it. And yeah, I'm looking forward to support the next event and hopefully that will lead to much more events. And hopefully we get us to a utopia that we're talking about.

Dr. Dave:

Without a doubt. So, I mean, just thank you so much. Thank you for connecting. I know we met quite a few years ago in Southern California at a coach camp so that was wonderful. And the fact that we continue to have dialogue over the years, it's really appreciative. And thank you for also inviting me to be on your podcast as well.

Salah:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah.

Salah:

Happy to do it.

Dr. Dave:

Yeah. So let me close. And I like to say thank you for listening to the KnolShare with Dr. Dave podcast. I hope this learning experience would also prompt you to take and seek more and discover how we can contribute to positive experiences for BIPOC lives. It really doesn't take much. All we have to do is to tap into our own humanity. So there's a few places that you're going to find this recording, and you'll find it on the Agile for Humanity podcast at KnolShare with Dr. Dave on iTunes, Google Play, Spotify, and now on Audible. And it'll also be at a few different websites, like the agileallience.org website, knolshare.com as well.

 

The music for this podcast was written by my niece, Kiana Brown Hendrickson.

 

This podcast Copyright 2021, KnolShare and Dr. Dave Cornelius.

 

So until next time. Be well, stay safe and connect soon.

 

Learn more by visiting KnolShare.org for the future of work and business agility.