EAFH41: Devon Morris, 1st African American Certified Scrum Trainer (CST)

Devon Morris, 1st African American Certified Scrum Trainer (CST)

Devon Morris and Dr. Dave

Kyanna:            Let's talk about it. Talk, talk, talk. Let's go deep. We all have something to share. KnolShare with Dr. Dave.

Dr. Dave:          Hey, so hello and welcome to the KnolShare with Dr. Dave Podcast. I'm Dr. Dave Cornelius, your host. My conversation today is with Devon Morris, or is it Devon.

Devon:             Devon.

Dr. Dave:          Devon Morris, an international speaker, Agile coach and trainer. What is going on with you today, man? But before I even get the answer to that question, I just want to say thank you for spending two amazing days with us during the Agile for Humanity conference. Thank you.

Devon:             No, no, no, man. You put it all together. I appreciate being able to be in the space with the doctor.

Dr. Dave:          Ah, warms my heart, warms my heart. Hey, so maybe a lot of people know about you, but why don't you fire up an elevator pitch about Devon Morris to help our audience learn more about you, man?

Devon:             Yeah. Well, the truth is there's really no elevator pitch whatsoever. I am a humble, probably nerdy kid raised on Chicago's South side. So if you think about the crucible of the south side of Chicago, that's where I was raised at. Somehow I became the first black certified scrum trainer through working with helping cultures change, making my family proud, making families that know of me or are a part of my existence proud. Regardless of the certifications or the degrees or anything like that, I am always working to make a 10 year old, 14, 16 year old, 21 year old version of myself proud of the person I am today. So hopefully the people that come before me are proud of me. I stand on their shoulders and hopefully I can make a legacy for those that are coming after me. We can get into all the accolades at another time, but I'm just your boy from around the corner. That's it.

Dr. Dave:          Man, I know the south side of Chicago. I used to work over there, at the University of Chicago. But tell me about that journey, man. Tell me about that journey of becoming the first black CST. I heard that the Scrum Alliance put some ink out on you.

Devon:             Yeah, they put some ink on me.

Dr. Dave:          What was that journey like, man? Come on, man. Come on.

Devon:             I heard someone say that ... During the actual conference, I actually heard someone say that they felt like they were pledging. That's what they said. Even though the Scrum Alliance doesn't want it to feel that way, in terms of my CST journey, it did feel like I was pledging and what we describe in terms of my fraternity, I'm a member of the Omega Psi Phi Fraternity Inc., so greatest fraternity on a planet earth. Or, I'll say, universe. But the way we would describe it would be hard but fair. Okay? Let me explain that to you a little bit more. In terms of the application process, for me, that was easy when I applied. There wasn't anything different. Even though the process hasn't really changed very much, it was hard but fair.

I clearly remember my interview. My interview was in May of 2013 and pretty much I nailed the interview. I nailed the interview because I went in suited and booted, like my grandmother would expect, to impress my family. So I went in. Like they would say with any job interview, go in in your best dress and put your best forward. Right? But it's one of those things we're walking into that interview, and some of your listeners may feel this way, but have you ever felt that imposter syndrome? That no matter how much you've done, whatever it is you love to do, somebody is going to pull that veil away and you will be expos. Right? See, the thing is, is that I never believed that I could be a trainer like Ken Schwaber, with the kind of passion that I admire from him when I saw him in the front of the room, when I became a CSM back in 2005.

I never thought that could be true. Right? I never thought or believed that I could be as tenacious as a Tom Miller, who became the director of the Scrum Alliance after Ken left the Scrum Alliance. But the thing is, is that I work with Tom Miller at State Farm Insurance and we worked on the first Scrum project at state farm. But he had the bravery to want to change an entire company all by himself. I didn't believe I could have that tenacity. I remember being at my very first Scrum gathering in 2005. Tom said, " Go to the scrum gathering," and so I went. Right? And being the only black there. Probably about 40 something people, there's probably three or four women there and that was about it.

But the thing that you have to understand is I spent a lot of years being scared. I spent a lot of years, seven and eight years, building my confidence to all ultimately become a part of that certified scrum trainer world. The hardest part about becoming a certified scrum trainer had nothing to do with application. It had everything to do with all the things that I did to build the application prior to me ever applying. When it came to applying, it was a six month journey for me, but my pledge period started in 2005, long before I ever, ever, ever put an application up. Does that make sense, Dr. Dave?

Dr. Dave:          Oh, that makes all the sense in the world. You mean you put the work in, right?

Devon:             I put the work in.

Dr. Dave:          You put the work in.

Devon:             And that was the key. A lot of people think that, "Hey, just go apply for the CST and you're in." Well, that's not the case. Build your case long before you ever get to thinking about becoming a CST. If you build the case ... My philosophy when I walked into the interview was like this. You can't take away from me something that I feel like already have. So let me go ahead and show you all that I'm a part of the club so you all can know you need to accept me.

Dr. Dave:          That's beautiful.

Dr. Dave:          That's beautiful.

Devon:             Thank you. I appreciate that.

Dr. Dave:          So talk to me about building trust with customers. How easy was it for you at that time to actually go out and build a book of business? Because building a business, building a book of business is hard work, especially if you were the first black CST. I could imagine you showing up at some corporation's store and it may be a little different.

Devon:             Well, the truth is I would never say to anyone that building a book of business is easy. Okay? Especially from scratch. But we didn't build our book of business here from lauding ourselves on a certified scrum trainer. Our first paying customer was a Texas based company that I had given an hour free consulting session to on how they can apply Agile within their four walls. Right? Within their space. Now please understand that during that hour I gave to them generously without holding anything back whatsoever, without any expectations of getting anything in return. I'm just thinking about the possibility of building a business at this point. I'm not even thinking about how I'm going to secure this piece of business. We might call it business development, but I wasn't developing a business at that point. I was just giving freely to a community that had given to me.

When I decided to leave the actual consultant company I'd been working for and really jump out there, they were waiting. They were accepting. They were actually that first contracted customer that we actually had. I didn't go in training. I went in and actually doing Agile coaching while I was helping them to transform the organization. So realistically, one of the very first values, or at least our core values here at Bearded Eagle, is trust, is all around trust. What I did is, without knowing it, I became the trusted expert. I became the person that they believe could take them to the next level, or at least begin that journey because I probably trained 500 people there without being a certified scrum trainer. They just wanted to make sure their people were up to speed, had the same base level of knowledge, and to be truthful, that deck that I used to train them is the same deck that I used to provide with my CST application.

It just kind of went hand in hand. It had a bunch of stuff in it that wasn't associated with Scrum, but the idea is that I love serving them and by serving them and giving them generously, it turned it into our first piece of business and then everything else has mostly been referrals after that. So now when it came to becoming a trainer, we started doing trainings for people who were having hardship. I go rent a space and we give training away for free. Not that I would say to go do that, but we'd find ways to give generously. Not that we were certifying everybody, but we found ways to give generously, even before I became a CST. I still, to this day, get people that I trained in 2013, that I gave things away to in 2012, and they have moved on to become executives and everything else. And guess who they contact?

Dr. Dave:          Yeah. They would call you.

Devon:             They contact me. They call me. I didn't give to them to build

Devon:             ... The book of business I gave to them as our weekend session went for humanity sake. Because they had a need. So I get excited when I see the person that goes and gets a new job and they increase their salary by 60K or a 100K or they have an opportunity to feed their family a little bit better or I go inside of an organization I see the lights turned on, but that book of business has always been built by giving generously and becoming the expert that I already know that I am, but making sure that they can see that. And more business has come due to that over time.

So that's not easy by no stretch of the imagination, but if you give generously people have a tendency to give back to you. So this is how we've continued to create business at Bearded Eagle or anything else that I do, I try to give generously. And that's how we started that book of business.

Dr. Dave:          Man that's a great spirit to have and to bring to the table. So let's talk about social justice and some of the images that are coming out, that's really, for me, it's overwhelming. I don't know how your family's coping with that. So what awareness of being discovered, as you're going through this, right? Because we're all going through us with a social injustice issues that we're seeing happening around the world and especially in the United States of America.

Devon:             Well the interesting thing if you really think about who I am, I am what I would classify as a native black. I don't know any generations outside of America. I don't know any generations in my family that exist outside of the United States of America. No matter what line I go down, I can't find any generations outside of the United States of America. Everything normally goes back to me to slavery. Everything. No matter what, unless some of these things that's in my family are true about our potential Caucasian connections. But the truth is, is that 95% of my family period, over 95%, I want to say 100% but I can't say that are in a place where social injustice along with health, economic, et cetera inequities are the norm. It isn't something that's abnormal. We're used to it. Okay. And so on some level we say, "Hey, you know what, what kind of coping mechanisms do you use?

Well to cope with something realistically, and you tell me if I'm wrong Dr. Dave, is a conscious, purposeful set of actions or activities. It's something that's constantly happening to you. You'll find ways to cope with it. It becomes a defense mechanism. Because it directly impacts my daily survival. And so when I say it's nothing new that's because I built the defense mechanisms, or those things have come through the generations that I've had in these wonderful United States of America.

So I understand that people see what they see today and that's good because every day I go to sleep, when I go to sleep or when I wake up, I could be the next hashtag. Do I want to be the next hashtag? No, no, no. Dr. Dave, I know you've had some experience with this.

Dr. Dave:          Of course I have.

Devon:             I don't want to be the next hashtag.

Dr. Dave:          Hell no.

Devon:             When I go into a restaurant what happens? I never put my back to the door. I don't do that because I'm from the South Side of Chicago. I learned not to do that. I am in a 24-hour state of emergency when I'm in my house, Breonna Taylor or outside my house, you understand? Whether I'm legally able to carry a gun or not. See, I'm happy today to know that technology has provided new levels of transparency for these unfortunate events, but I want you to make sure you're aware and remember Malcolm X, Martin King, Fred Hamptons assassinations, right? What happened afterwards is the question, right? What about simple traffic stops? Some of you may never have heard of the name John Smith, but go look back at 67, Rodney King, Philando Castile. What happened afterwards would be the question, right? Have you ever seen postcards associated with Molds, Greenwood, Rosewood, pick it.

See, my family has the calluses and scars from a country that appears to be fascinated with nostalgia rather than a truth. See, I am curious if George Floyd's cries for his mother will finally get us to take action. Finally allow us to help put us in a position where we can learn to cope instead of just defending.

Dr. Dave:          I want to look into our space, the space that you and I live in an Agile community in a technology space, and what do you see going on there that's making you like ponder, what are the things going to change enough? I'm going to choose one word that we feel that sense of belonging.

Devon:             Well, I love the beauty. The beauty of the word belonging is amazing because belonging comes after a few other things and again, correct me if I'm wrong Dr. Dave, you got the Dr. in front of your name, I don't have all that fanciful stuff, right? So let's talk about that, belonging. Before you can ever have belonging, you have to feel included, right?

Dr. Dave:          Of course you do.

Devon:             Before you ever get to the point where you can feel included there has to be some level of equity, right?

Dr. Dave:          That's what I'm talking about.

Devon:             Before you have some level of equity there has to be some diversity right?

Dr. Dave:          True that.

Devon:             So the wars right now is all about diversity, equity and inclusion. But before you get to the base of belonging, you got to have those three things.

Dr. Dave:          That's why I started with belonging so I could get you to walk us there.

Devon:             You understand where I'm coming from?

Dr. Dave:          Oh yeah.

Devon:             So the idea is that do I dream of a place where we can make progress? I do. I hope for it, I dream about it, I desire it, okay. But we always talk about it. And here's the problem. Our problem is systemic. You look at the Agile community, the Agile community is just a reflection of the technology community. You look at the technology community and you can see discrepancies in the technology community period. It's just the same issue in a different packaging.

And so the one thing, if I was to just step back for a moment and point out this year, this February. This February is the 20th anniversary of the Agile Manifesto. And if I point toward that, I'm going to put the values to the side for a second and go to two principles, the 12th and a seventh. The 12th one is all about reflecting. The seventh one is all about a true measure of progress. So now I say to myself, can we get beyond nostalgia, put the truth on the table, reflect back, take a real hardcore look at where we're at, and then can we find ways to truly measure progress. Ways that we can have a true impact on our community.

The beauty of Agile, the beauty of Scrum, the beauty of [inaudible 00:19:55] program and pick any one of them is that they all live and breathe the values and principles of the Agile Manifesto, period. Small experiments become a plus. If we did small experiments would that be helpful? Probably so. Could we have an impact on our community? Probably so. But I want to measure that in a way that's going to show that we're progressing.

So I think that there's a beauty in our community. I really, really think that our community has a beautiful aspect to it. I think there's a lot of selfish as in the community, no doubt. But I believe that through this thing that we do, we can actually have impacts on communities that go far beyond. Like I challenge every single organization that exists out here, do you actually have an impact on a community after you guys have had a conference? Like, wouldn't it be nice that if we had a conference in that community where we had that conference, we left something behind that will forever impact that community. Most our communities don't do that. Which is a concern of mine. It's a huge concern of mine.

So it's one thing for us to talk about this thing over and over. And that's what we do. We do a good job at talking. But we don't do a good job at action. We create these certifications that are about us having certifications. But are we really having an impact on the community? And in many cases the unfortunately answer to that is no. But do I believe, do I believe that that can happen? Yeah, I do. But history doesn't show us that it's possible. History doesn't show that it can, especially on these hollowed grounds where you had things like the trail of tears or just slavery in general. Do you understand where I'm coming from?

Dr. Dave:          Oh, I'm with you on that. I'm with you on that. But look, are we making

Dr. Dave:          ... progress being accepted into the Agile community that gives you a sense of hope, since you've been there for a while.

Devon:             I would say yes, we're making progress. Statistically, no. Yes, we're making progress. Statistically, no. If I say to myself, and you tell me Dr. Dave, what do you think? If I was in a conference in 2005 and it was 40 people and I was the only black person there. So that's one out of 40. We can say that percentage is maybe 2.5%.

Dr. Dave:          Yeah, roughly.

Devon:             Would you say that our community is 2.5% BIPOC?

Dr. Dave:          No, man. That's a hard one.

Devon:             You see where I'm coming from? You see what I'm saying, right?

Dr. Dave:          Yeah.

Devon:             Is our community 2.5% BIPOC? This is the statement. And so, can I say we've made progress? I look across there, I see Dr. Dave. Yeah, we've made progress, but not really. Statistically, the answer to that is, I don't believe that's the case. I don't believe that's the case.

So it is one of those things where I'm like, "Yeah, we've made progress because I've seen more of you." But in me seeing more of us, there's way more of them still. And have I seen this place where I can say we've made progress? The answer to that is yes and no. I'm always good with seeing women, and I love seeing women involved, and I push for seeing women involved. But I remember when that was only just a couple, a few black, I mean a few women certified scrum trainers.

I remember seeing, Esther Derby and probably Diane Larson, Lisa Atkins, and I think maybe there was one or two other women at that first scrum gathering that I was a part of, that was like 40 to 50 people. That may be 10%. So we're talking about a conference where the women are 10% maybe, and I'm 2%. So let's just pretend like that's 15%. Basically, in 2005, we're talking about 15%. I don't know if we're 15% of that today. Black folks is definitely not 2.5%. So are we making progress? Yeah. I love seeing more faces, but when I look at it, statistically, I would say that the answer to that is probably a resounding no. No, it is not proportional.

Dr. Dave:          What about hope? We're making progress, maybe. So we're not making progress, but I want to know about hope. Are you getting any hope out of what you've seen so far in your journey?

Devon:             I would say to you, I have hope, but Martin Luther King, he actually spoke on in front of Lincoln Monument and he talked about hope. I think within a year or so, he was dead. Martin Luther King said that he felt like he led people into a burning building. Martin Luther King was trying to start the people's movement. I have hope. But what I know to be true is that things don't change unless the dominant culture decides to help with that change. The dominant culture has to help with that change. When I hear about big, big companies saying, "You know what, we're not going to do business with you unless you have a woman on your board," that's some progress.

Because people move in a direction where money's at. This week in Texas, we've had the worst power outage Texas has ever had. People are dying here and they're bringing it up like it's politics at this point. When people dying, and who's dying more than anybody else? Disadvantaged folks. More BIPOC folks are dying more than anything else.

So do I think that there's hope for change? Yeah, otherwise I would quit. Otherwise I would stop doing what I do. But the question becomes, what are we going to do about it? I'm done with hope. I've been done with hope a long time. The question in my head is, what kind of actions can I take to change this? What kind of actions can I do to have an impact on where this is going, moving forward?

And so in the event that we just had, Dr. Jay, we talked about a melanated action society. Well, regardless of what space you operate in, can we create a place that can help build a systemic belonging? That can help have an impact and foster change. The great thing about BLM is that they are a de-centralized movement, which means you can't really just kill it. And we have had centralized movements, which people have been able to kill. So now, can we do the same thing in this space and de-centralize that movement so we can make sure that change happens? I don't know. I have hope in that, but that hope doesn't go without action and change. Action happening on small levels, change happening on small levels, and growing over time.

So yes, I do have hope, Dr. Dave, but I know it's going to take a lot of work. I know it's going to take a lot of the other side acquiescing as well and helping to create a level playing field. It will be a difference if it systemic, but it is systemic. And that's the problem. Our institutions have put up enough barriers around them to where it's hard to even change them. Just look at the White House. Remember the White House?

Dr. Dave:          Yeah.

Devon:             Remember the riot?

Dr. Dave:          Yep.

Devon:             We talk about a bunch of black folks show up. Forget the name black folks. If anybody else showed up and did the things that happened to the Capitol, let's just say it was all women, there would probably have been more casualties.

Dr. Dave:          A lot more casualties, that's for sure. Without a doubt. Yeah.

Devon:             A bunch of women wearing Wonder Woman costumes, if they showed up saying, "We're going to take over. We're going to overthrow that. We're going to go in here and do whatever we need to do, stop what you're doing," there would've been way more casualties. It's just facts. So there is some privilege that happens there, but if we check that at the door, this is part of the stuff that we need to deal with in some way, shape, form, or fashion. So, anyway, that's that Dr. Dave. I probably said enough on that.

Dr. Dave:          I like to bring things down in the funnel. We started wide, we need to come down to talk about what actions that you're personally taking to improve opportunities for black, indigenous and people of color, we call BIPOC, in the Agile community.

Devon:             Well, truth is, prior to 2021, my efforts have always focused on disadvantaged, underprivileged youth, trying to get them to see these possibilities. Because I grew up in poverty. The people in my neighborhood were not doctors and lawyers, so I didn't see those kind of people, so I didn't think that that was possible for me. I'd ended up dropping out of high school and I'd ended up going to a high school in Miami. And an interesting thing is I went to the same high school that Jeff Bezos went to, even though he graduated many years before me. And when I went there, I saw a whole different society, whole different life. These were really, really rich, rich, rich, rich, rich, white kids. And going in some of their buildings, going to some of their homes with pianos and doctors and lawyers and everything else, they gave me a whole different insight.

And so what I have tried to do prior to 2021 is have impacts on communities, like being a principal for a day, going and working with high school students in these kind of areas so they can see my face and see that I look like them. And it's one of those things where I get to have an Obama moment. There was one time when a White House staffer was leaving and their kids is black, and so the black kid touched Obama's hair. Obama bent down so he could touch his hair, show him, I'm just like you, right. I get to have that moment in that way.

So my focus prior, was going in and trying to have this individual impact. My focus now is to make sure that I am more visible in 2021. My visibility, I think, is my strength. In terms of me being the first black certified scrum trainer, there is some strength in that. There's some direction that I can help people move forward with that.

And what I did for example this year, was created an unfiltered call-in show, where people can call in and basically get their scrum Agile life questions answered, basically. And so it's my way of starting something to start lifting more people as we climb. But it's that visibility that is most important. So I have promised, I have done more, joining more conferences, getting more involved in meetups, making sure that I'm involved in more communities. Some of the things we have done is hardship classes deep, deep discounts on classes. Last year after Floyd happened, we did a Black Lives Matter set of classes, where we did zero cost on classes like that.

So we will always continue to do things, make things happen that will have an impact on our communities in some way. But probably the biggest strength that I have is being visible, which I didn't do in the past for many reasons. But now since most of my kids are graduated and gone, I can do it now.

Dr. Dave:          So I have an invitation for you.

Devon:             Okay.

Dr. Dave:          And you know what that invitation is, because I've already sent it to you via text. So I want you to get involved with the 5 Saturdays program and the Go Agile Edu program, because we're doing exactly that. And look, if more of us are involved and bring that level of visibility and capability to the table, I mean the impact could be huge.

Devon:             I agree.

Dr. Dave:          So that's my invitation and I have your number, so you're in trouble now.

Devon:             Invitation. Whoa, whoa, whoa, time out, time out.

Dr. Dave:          You're in trouble now.

Devon:             No, no, I'm not in trouble. You in trouble. The statement clearly

Devon:             I'm going to say to every single kid, "He could've invited me years ago, man, he just didn't want to. Because I ain't got no doctor title in front of my name he didn't want me. I wasn't on that level. So he had [crosstalk 00:33:13]."

Dr. Dave:          I ain't going to call you out here, but...

So you're running all of... Let's say that you just end up being like the precedent of Scrum and Agile. Let's talk about what would you recommend as a course of action to bring about diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging in the agile community for BIPOC professionals? You're the big dog.

Devon:             Well, the first thing I would do is I'd tell people to check their privilege at the door. That'd be the first thing. Because a lot of times what ends up ending most conversations is people's feeling of privilege. And we need to find a way to get past that, first and foremost. I would do something that Biden did. I would create a task force, a response team, or whatever it is, focused on DEI. Period. Focused on DEI and taking action toward diversity, equity, inclusion, so we can build belonging. And with the objective of having belonging. Not just with the expectation that we have diversity, equity, and inclusion, that we already exist in that kind of world and we're building toward that world, but we're building toward that belonging.

So if I was a part of, or the leader, or on the board of any of these things whatsoever, the first thing that I would do is, this is an emergency let's create a response team. Because truth of the matter is, who in their right mind allows for eight minutes and 46 seconds to go by while somebody is begging and pleading for their live? Who allows that on our planet to happen? Who allows that, regardless of what kind of badge you hold? And so, realistically, I would start off with some response teams that are there to really deal with and start really attacking this problem. And the only reason why I say response teams is because there's not one thing that needs to be tackled, we have a whole series of things that we need to deal with. I could say to you, "We can make black people, women, feel more included inside of Agile. But does that change the numbers of people coming up from high school and elementary school that's getting into this space, so then we don't end up with bad numbers in a future?" That doesn't change any of that.

So we have a lot of things within our circle that we need to change, and we need to find some way to start attacking that slowly but surely. I'm not saying that this is a thing that changes overnight, but it is something that, if we focus some time and effort into, we could actually have some impact. Not impact for everything, but some impact. Prioritization, I think we can use Scrum and Agile to help us actually make sure we work on the most important things. But I would love to help lead up some response team, or response teams, that would actually work across all these different ways that people think about doing things. Nomenclature, moving beyond all that stuff, to real change happening within our communities.

I think this will happen, I think this will definitely happen in 2021. I think people were still shocked in terms of 2020. And in coming out of 2020 they're getting over that shock-dom, and they will get to a place where now people can start thinking about seeing the end. And the unfortunate thing about it for us is we're still in the middle of COVID.

Dr. Dave:          Oh yeah.

Devon:             That's the rest of 2020. That's the rest of 2021. We probably won't start getting back to normal until 2022, if we be real honest with ourselves.

Dr. Dave:          Yeah.

Devon:             We got a long tail ahead of us. And this thing may come back like the flu, every single year. So this is maybe just a real part of our lives moving forward.

Dr. Dave:          And maybe this is a time that we get an opportunity to pause, plan and build.

Devon:             Yeah. I just want to make sure we do that pause, plan and build in a small experimental way, instead of in big hulking chunks where we never get to any action.

Dr. Dave:          I completely understand that. My brother, thank you so much for your time today.

Devon:             Whoa, whoa, whoa. We're done? You don't have questions?

Dr. Dave:          Man, you you've done such a magnificent job of being the king of Agile and Scrum. You're starting MAS, right? Melanated Action Society, MAS.

Devon:             Yes. Yes we are. Right.

Dr. Dave:          Which means more in Spanish. Mas is more.

Devon:             Yeah.

Dr. Dave:          Yeah, man. So to me, that's a moment of cool. End at that grace note.

Devon:             Okay. Well then look, man, I'm going to say this. I appreciate what you're doing. I think you're doing great things in pulling people together, of different everything, to actually have these conversations. And I want you to keep having these conversations. I want you to keep making us aware of each other. I want you to keep with sharing knowledge, and taking action around that knowledge. So I want to just send a shout out and appreciate you, Dr. Dave.

Dr. Dave:          I really, really appreciate that, truly, at the heart level, down to that level. It's like, "Hello, I love you brother." That's what I say. So let me lead out here and say, just thank you for listening to the KnolShare with Dr. Dave podcast. I hope this learning experience will also prompt you to seek more and discover how to contribute to positive experiences for BIPOC lives. Look, it doesn't take a lot. All we have to do so tap into our humanity. That's it.

You can find Agile for Humanity, social justice and impact series, on the KnolShare with Dr. Dave podcast on iTunes, Google Play and Spotify. The Agile for Humanity, social justice impact series, is also in the following websites, there's a few of them. It's on the agilealliance.org website, knolsharewithdrdave.com, grokshare.com, knolshare.org, and also agileforhumanity.org. I also want you to look for the Sharing Black, Indigenous, and People of Color stories on the Agile Alliance website under their webcast.

I want to give shout outs for the music.

My niece wrote the music, Kyanna Brown-Hendrickson, shout out to her.

This podcast is copyright 2020/21 KnolShare and Dr. Dave Cornelius.

So until next time, be well, stay safe, and connect soon.

And Devon Morrison. I want to call you Devon, because my daughter's name is Devon, I have a brother name is Devon, so I want to call you Devin. So Devon. I'll screw that up. Believing, Devon...

Devon:             It's all good, man. It's all good.

Dr. Dave:          Yeah, brother. This is excellent. I'm finally glad that we connected, and we've had this chance to have this real talk.

Devon:             I appreciate you, man.



Kyanna:            Let's talk about it. Talk, talk, talk. Let's go deep. We all have something to share. KnolShare with Dr. Dave.